Author Topic: Upcoming flight...  (Read 1992 times)

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Offline state_of_nowhere

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2010, 10:37:29 AM »
I do know some airlines have (in the past, at least) permitted "regulation sized" carries with small dogs in them. I recall a friend of my mother's was flying with her small dog and the stewardess was nasty and pulled out a tape measure and said the carrier was 1/4 inch too long and made them miss the flight. In the end, the woman got a gift card or something because of the way she was treated by the stewardess. It was clear that the stewardess was deliberately trying to give her a hard time.
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Offline Spectrum

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2010, 10:40:40 AM »
Some airlines do allow small pets to be taken in the cabin as carry-on, but they are to remain in their carriers under the seat, and there is an extra charge. There is also a limit to how many pets are allowed in the cabin of an airplane. Some airlines fly all pets as cargo, regardless of whether they're small or not. Even then there is a limit to how many pets can be flown on a single plane.
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Offline LolaMarigolda

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2010, 11:49:19 AM »
During 2007 (when I was flying 1-3 roundtrips a month), a lot of the airlines were cracking down on carry-on pets to the point that soft sided carriers were being measured and weighed at check-in (since most airlines will not let you do internet check-in if you are scheduled to fly with an animal).  I saw quite a few people who were given the choice of not taking the animal, buying a hard crate there and sending it as checked baggage (if the airline offered the service and the temps were less than 85), or missing their flight.  They were also cracking down on people who were stuffing their leggy, but light-weight dogs into carriers since the DOT rules state the animal must be able to stand up and turn around.

I've also seen the carry-on weight limits fluctuate like crazy, but all include the weight of the carrier itself (and whatever you have in it) in addition to the weight of the dog.  That lead to seeing people stuffing the dog's bedding, toys, ect into their other carry-on bag to get under the weight limit and then put it all back in after going through the security checkpoint.

Regs state that pets are to remain in their carriers.  When it comes to ESAs, I have seen flight attendants make them stay on the floor and if they came on board in a carrier, they would make them stay in the carrier.

The fear of flying (aerophobia, aviatophobia, aviophobia or pteromechanophobia) is NOT listed in the DSM.
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Offline Spectrum

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2010, 01:21:51 PM »
Quote
The fear of flying (aerophobia, aviatophobia, aviophobia or pteromechanophobia) is NOT listed in the DSM.

Just because something isn't listed in the DSM doesn't mean it can't be a disability. Likewise, just because a disorder is listed in the DSM doesn't mean it's always disabling.

Fear of flying actually IS in the DSM. It would fall into the category "Specific Phobia." Just like fear of snakes, spiders, pancakes, or bubbles would.

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Diagnostic Criteria for Specific Phobia
A. Marked and persistent fear that is excessive or unreasonable, cued by the presence or anticipation of a specific object or situation (e.g., flying, heights, animals, receiving an injection, seeing blood).

B. Exposure to the phobic stimulus almost invariably provokes an immediate anxiety response, which may take the form of a situationally bound or situationally predisposed Panic Attack. Note: In children, the anxiety may be expressed by crying, tantrums, freezing, or clinging.

C. The person recognizes that the fear is excessive or unreasonable. Note: In children, this feature may be absent.

D. The phobic situation(s) is avoided or else is endured with intense anxiety or distress.

E. The avoidance, anxious anticipation, or distress in the feared situation(s) interferes significantly with the person's normal routine, occupational (or academic) functioning, or social activities or relationships, or there is marked distress about having the phobia.

F. In individuals under age 18 years, the duration is at least 6 months.

G. The anxiety, Panic Attacks, or phobic avoidance associated with the specific object or situation are not better accounted for by another mental disorder, such as Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (e.g., fear of dirt in someone with an obsession about contamination), Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (e.g., avoidance of stimuli associated with a severe stressor), Separation Anxiety Disorder (e.g., avoidance of school), Social Phobia (e.g., avoidance of social situations because of fear of embarrassment), Panic Disorder With Agoraphobia, or Agoraphobia Without History of Panic Disorder.
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Offline latopla

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2010, 01:32:06 PM »
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What I said I saw was dogs in cabins...pets who were paid for.  This is the option I was suggesting.  It was all perfectly legal and no one was passing the dog off as a service animal.

I was not stating that I believed people where bringing pets on planes that were not SDs or ESAs (even though I know it happens).  I was stating that if you saw people with dogs in their laps, that is the part that is against airline policy.  The pet dog has to stay in the crate the entire flight.  Most dogs that are put in a crate for a trip in the plane cabin are not going to also have a leash on.  Therefore, the owner deciding to take the pet out of the crate in the first place is highly likely to not put a leash on the dog once it is in a lap.  So now you have a dog that could possibly spook or simply jump from the person's lap and go running throughout the plane...scaring people, aggravating allergies, and causing general havoc. 

If a person is already anxious about flying, getting in trouble with the airline for removing a pet from a carrier is not going to help the situation.  Further, the airline could decide to make the person place the pet in cargo on the return flight or go as far as denying services at all.  As in, the person would have to buy a new ticket with a new airline in order to get back home. 

Also, as strict as airlines are these days about carrier size/weight...it is really only toy or teacup dogs that can fit without too much of a hassle.

Additionally, as others have stated, the flight often puts a limit on how many dogs can be in the cabin.  That limit is usually as low as 1-3.  So, if you happen to be the 4th person to try and take your pet dog in the cabin, you are going to have to allow it to go into the cargo area instead.  If this route is chosen, it is likely beneficial to call ahead a few days to the airline and try to give them a heads up about you wanting to bring your pet in the cabin.  Some may not allow this to count but some may so it is worth a shot.  ESAs and SDs have to call ahead regardless (last time I checked) so either way you probably need to call. 
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Offline Sheenar

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2010, 01:55:40 PM »
I didn't have to call ahead when I flew with Pebbles. I was told not to. We had no problems at all with our airline or flight ---and the flight attendants were super helpful, in fact. We pre-boarded the plane, loaded Pebbles' harness into the overhead (the flight attendant helped), and settled in. She also helped take it down when we unboarded the plane. The pilot himself helped me carry one of my carry on bags to the terminal and helped flag down a tram to take me to baggage claim.

Everything went really smoothly. No issues in security clearance. No issues in the plane. Very nice flight. We flew in 2004 with Continental Airlines (which is now merged with United, I think.)
Partnered with Leon --successor to Pebbles.

Offline latopla

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2010, 02:06:05 PM »
Maybe I am thinking of policies specifically for ESAs and PSDs.  I know someone has to call ahead but it may just be those two types of dogs.  Unless policies changed recently... :wacko:
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Offline Stag

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2010, 02:22:31 PM »
ESAs and PSDs don't have to call ahead but they DO need a doctor's note to fly, if I remember right.

Offline latopla

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2010, 03:19:44 PM »
Okay I looked it up.  The DOT says that it is up to each airline to decide but they are allowed to require up to 48 hours notice if a person with an ESA wishes to fly with the dog in the cabin.
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Offline Kirsten

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2010, 04:25:23 PM »
I'm going to have trouble reading through all the posts in this thread because of my print disability.  I see some issues coming up which might or might not already have  been addressed, but in case not, I'll chime in.

1.  Not all airlines or all flights permit pets in cabin.  Some do, probably most do not.  Those that do permit them require that they fit in carriers of certain dimensions.  These dimensions will vary from airline to airline depending on how their seats are constructed and how fussy the airline is.  They do not have to permit pets, so they can set whatever rules they want and you either accept them, leave the pet at home, or choose another airline. 

Pets flying in cabin must remain in their carriers and under the seat throughout the flight.  Every single airline policy I've read has specified that.

Some airlines will require ESAs and SDs to remain on the floor during take-off and landing.  This is REASONABLE.  This is a safety issue, just like buckling the seatbelt.  In an emergency a dog can become an airborne projectile just like a purse or brief case.  The dog is safer and better protected on the floor during take-off and landing and other passengers are safer from the dog, should the plane experience an emergency.  Not all airlines do this, but many do.  They are allowed to because it is a safety issue, just like they can make you take a window seat so you don't block another passenger from being able to escape in an emergency.

2.  Annual letters for SDs are required by regulation only for invisible disabilities (specifically for psychiatric disabilities), but not necessarily for those disabilities that are readily apparent.  This is regardless of whether the animal is a PSD or ESA.  48 hours advanced notice is required by regulatory law for both PSDs and ESAs.  Advanced notice for other SDs is not required, but is just plain good common sense because it avoids a lot of confusion and hassles.   The DOT (who writes the regulations for the ACAA) does not distinguish between PSDs (task trained) and ESAs (not task trained) but does distinguish between PSDs/ESAs and all other kinds of SDs.  They don't care.  Yes, it is discrimination.  Again, they've been told and they don't care.  (Arguing with me about it being unfair won't change it, because I already agree, but that's the way it is so that's the way I report it.)

3.  ESAs are permitted to ride in the cabin, even on flights that don't ordinarily permit pets, but must be under control.  They are not required to be a certain size or to ride in a carrier, so long as they fit within the foot space assigned to the passenger.  (The same is true of service dogs.)  If the dog is observed at the gate not behaving appropriately, it can be barred from the flight.

NOTE:  If your gear and credible verbal assurances aren't considered credible, they CAN ask any person with any disability and any sort of service dog for written documentation.  Legally, they are allowed to.  They tend to err on the side of being permissive, but don't count on it.  The regs say that gear is an indicator, but it does not say that they must absolutely accept any dog that shows up in gear:

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(1) Carriers shall accept as evidence that an animal is a service animal identification cards, other written documentation, presence of harnesses or markings on harnesses, tags, or the credible verbal assurances of the qualified individual with a disability using the animal.
(my emphasis)

"Evidence," not "proof."  Evidence is, "A thing, a document, or the testimony of a person that bears on the truth or falsity of an assertion made in litigation..."  If you're evidence sucks in a court of law, you lose.  Doesn't matter that you have evidence, just how convincing it is.  A cape on an unruly dog isn't very convincing evidence that the dog is a service dog.  An unusual breed, and in particular a toy breed might automatically be suspect because of the high number of fakers.

4.  Fitting in footspace:

Quote
If the service animal does not fit in the assigned location, you should relocate the passenger and the service animal to some other place in the cabin in the same class of service where the animal will fit under the seat in front of the passenger and not create an obstruction, such as the bulkhead. If no single seat in the cabin will accommodate the animal and passenger without causing an obstruction, you may offer the option of purchasing a second seat, traveling on a later flight or having the service animal travel in the cargo hold. As indicated above, airlines may not charge passengers with disabilities for services required by part 382, including transporting their oversized service animals in the cargo compartment. (69 FR 64393)
 

If your dog doesn't look or act professional, it can get you stopped.  As with the ADA, they are ALLOWED to ask you what the dog is trained to do.  If your explanation doesn't make sense, then they are allowed to insist on seeing documentation as a condition of letting you board.  Regardless of disability.  If you have documentation, this is a time to carry a photo copy with you as insurance.  If you have a psychiatric disability, regardless of whether your dog is a PSD or ESA, you must carry documentation and must notify them at least 48 hours in advanced of scheduled departure of your intent to fly with a PSD or ESA.  No it isn't fair!  Yes, it is discrimination.  But that's the way it is.  That's the way regulatory law governing the access of PWDs to planes is written.  It is the law.  Sometimes laws suck too (consider taxes...).  Why did this unfair change get made to the regulations?  FAKERS.  Too many fakers claiming their pets as ESAs or PSDs.  And people think fakers don't hurt anyone.

All of that said, I've flown many times without a problem, without even a question other than what my dog does for me.  Yes, I have an invisible disability (TBI with atypical seizures).  I always have a very professional service dog with excellent training and behavior, I mark my service dog clearly (with a cape) and I use a traditional breed.  I have had friends with non-traditional breeds stopped.  I'm not trying to scare anyone, just prepare everyone.  The goal is to reach your destination.  If you are well prepared, you stand a better chance of achieving that goal in a timely manner than if you are not.  If you have a non-traditional breed, you have even more reason to carry documentation.  Just in case. 
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Offline Kirsten

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2010, 04:28:13 PM »
ESAs and PSDs don't have to call ahead but they DO need a doctor's note to fly, if I remember right.

They need both.
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Offline LolaMarigolda

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2010, 08:30:51 PM »
Quote
The fear of flying (aerophobia, aviatophobia, aviophobia or pteromechanophobia) is NOT listed in the DSM.

Just because something isn't listed in the DSM doesn't mean it can't be a disability. Likewise, just because a disorder is listed in the DSM doesn't mean it's always disabling.

Fear of flying actually IS in the DSM. It would fall into the category "Specific Phobia." Just like fear of snakes, spiders, pancakes, or bubbles would.



Spectrum,  first, it is clearly stated that an ESA letter for flying must be based on a DSM diagnosis (page 102 section 4) of http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/Part%20382-2008.pdf.  Second, the section of the DSM I was skimming this morning while half asleep stated that fear of flying was most often a symptom of a larger (generally more disabling) problem.
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Offline latopla

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2010, 08:52:04 PM »
Spectrum, I'm sorry in advance if you feel that this is stepping on your toes...I just wanted to clear up the confusion quickly since I don't like misconceptions about the DSM so much...

Quote
first, it is clearly stated that an ESA letter for flying must be based on a DSM diagnosis (page 102 section 4) of http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/Part%20382-2008.pdf.

A fear of flying is a type of specific phobia.  Specific phobias, as have already be detailed, are a diagnosis based upon the DSM.  Next, the original poster stated that they have panic attacks that are especially connected to flying.  So someone that has panic attacks probably does have other problems that could be diagnosed and could be disabling.  Regardless, even if the diagnosis is simply a specific phobia, if a doctor feels that the phobia is actually disabling...then that is enough to write a recommendation for an ESA.
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Offline Spectrum

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2010, 09:08:30 PM »
Quote
Spectrum, I'm sorry in advance if you feel that this is stepping on your toes...I just wanted to clear up the confusion quickly since I don't like misconceptions about the DSM so much...

Not at all, there's nothing wrong with someone else answering a question if they know the answer  :smile:
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Offline Dazzler

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Re: Upcoming flight...
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2010, 08:38:37 AM »
It seems the tide is turning with more airlines allowing animals in the cabin.  From CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/07/10/pets.fly.airlines/index.html

 

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